At first glance, Alex Ross Perry's terrific new drama Listen Up Philip seems obsessed with its self-obsessed protagonist. Philip — a reasonably successful novelist played with caustic wit by Jason Schwartzman — is in the midst of a destructive streak that dramatically affects the lives of everyone around him. Even its first teaser is told entirely from Philip's perspective:
But Listen Up Philip hinges on a clever structural conceit: after immersing us in Philip's narcissistic viewpoint, the film suddenly switches to the perspective of his spurned ex-girlfriend Ashley (Elisabeth Moss). "I feel him weighing on me more in his absence than when he was around," says Ashley. "He's just gone." Though Philip and Ashley's paths cross several more times before the movie ends, they never occupy the same orbit for long.
It's an ingenious way to structure a film that is, at least in part, about the end of a relationship, giving both Philip and Ashley's independent perspectives on themselves and each other equal narrative weight.
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It's also a structure I wanted to emulate in this interview. Last week, I spoke with both Jason Schwartzman and Elisabeth Moss on separate days, while they were thousands of miles away from one another. Edited together (and completely unaware of each other's responses to the exact same questions), their independent perspectives — and the differences between them — offer unique insights into Listen Up Philip.
How much does Jason have in common with Philip?
Elisabeth: Obviously, Jason knows himself better than I do. I don't know if he'll have a really different answer or not. But I just think he's one of the nicest people I've ever met. I adore being around him. So from my perspective...well, Philip is very different from Jason. [laughs]
Jason: I am for sure similar [to Philip], in that I do tend to...not worship, but definitely love people. I idolize people a lot — maybe too much. And I go, "Oh, he's the greatest, the greatest musician." And I'll read interviews, and try to glean information from it. There's a little bit of that with Philip. I definitely can relate to the idea: you get a bad review, or put out some music, and everybody hates it. But Paul McCartney loves it. And that's way more important to you than anything.
How much does Elisabeth have in common with Ashley?
Jason: That's so complicated. You've got Ashley, who's this beautiful, driven, talented woman who really puts her foot down, and is not going to be treated a certain way anymore. There's a lot of strength and power. That's what I think of Lizzie. But it's not really fair, because we only see Ashley at a certain point in this thing. If you say, "Tell me about Ashley," I imagine her makeup is a little bit fucked up, and she's been crying. And when I think of the real Elisabeth Moss, I think about exuberance: smiling, joyful, laughing...
Elisabeth: I think I'm very similar to Ashley in a lot of ways, actually. I think I'm probably a little bit...nicer, maybe? [laughs] This, for me, was more about telling a story that I had experience with: the story of a breakup in New York in the summer. I spent a lot of my twenties in New York in the summer, and so of course there were a couple of relationships, and a couple of breakups. I had that experience... The one thing I sort of had to figure out [about Ashley] is that I would never let someone speak to me that way, or do the things that Philip does, you know? If my boyfriend walked in and said, "I'm leaving town, and I don't know when I'll be back..." [laughs] That would be quite a discussion.
We meet Phillip and Ashley near the end of their relationship, and things don't exactly get better from there. What did you discuss about the earlier, happier stages of their romance?
Elisabeth: They're definitely attracted to each other, and there's a lot of Philip in Ashley. She can be a little bit misanthropic as well, and has that sort of independent spirit. The problem is — as it happens in so many relationships — the things that attract you to a person at the beginning are the things that, when things go wrong, end up making you not want to be with a person. It's those exact the same things. I think with Philip and Ashley, it's all fine and dandy when Philip is addressing the world in the manner that he does. But when he starts addressing the relationship, and Ashley, with the same attitude, that's when it doesn’t work for her anymore.
Jason: I think that Philip has an effect on these people. It's really tricky. Obviously there's something good [about being with him], and then obviously it must turn at some point. But this is a very smart guy, who's very talented, and I think he's very charismatic. But he's also closed off in many ways.
Did you think of your character's problems as self-inflicted?
Jason: A lot of it is self-inflicted. Even the things [Philip] doesn't know he's inflicting. I'm sure when he was young, he said to himself, "I'm going to move to New York, become a writer. I'm probably going to be hard to get to know, and I'm probably going to have different relationships come and go. But the most important thing is going to be my work."
Elisabeth: I think that whenever you're in a relationship that you shouldn't be in — and you kind of know you shouldn't be in it — and sometimes you know that for like, a little while. And you don't do anything about it. [laughs] I think there comes a point where it becomes your own responsibility to remove yourself from the situation that is clearly making you unhappy.
Jason: Clearly, there's something good [about Philip], because he's had these relationships with these women who are amazing and beautiful. And enough so that they would come and meet him again!... I asked myself the same thing when I came to the production office. I looked on the wall when we were shooting the movie, and there's a photo of me beside every actress. And I went, "God, how did he get all these women?" How did he date these girls? I mean, that is insane.
What was the most difficult Philip/Ashley scene to film?
Jason: [The fight in the middle of the movie]. Ashley's having some friends over. She's trying to celebrate something that just happened to her, and she can't even celebrate it with her boyfriend. He happens to be there, and he doesn't even...he does say, "That's great," and there's a moment of sweetness where he does see her for herself. And then he turns it off again. And she starts crying, and he says, "You need a haircut." It's just a very intimate scene, because it's the kind of fight you have with someone who you have that kind of relationship with... Emotionally, it was hard for me to watch [Elisabeth] crying. She's so nice, and she would cry, and I would feel so bad.
Elisabeth: I wanted to show the pain, as well as her standing up to him. I didn't want her to just be a doormat. But at the same time, she has to be for a little while.
How would you describe Ashley in three words?
Jason: I would say Ashley is fascinated and fascinating. Does that count as two, or is that one? I would say fascinated and fascinating — that's one. She is gifted. And she is...changing. But does that make sense? She's open.
Elisabeth: I think that she's intelligent. I think that she's independent. And I think that she's...a real woman, in the sense that she can be weak as well. You know? She can be not perfect, as well. [pauses] Sorry, that's a million words, not three.
How would you describe Philip in three words?
Elisabeth: Again, intelligent. Again, independent. And misanthropic, I'm afraid. [laughs]
Jason: He is relentless. Disappointed. And talented.
Did you ever imagine what might happen to Ashley after Listen Up Philip ends?
Philip: Of all the characters, she comes out of this the best. I think that she will probably go on to have a great relationship next.
Elisabeth: I think that when you're truly over someone, you don't hate them anymore. And I wanted her to have that. When she runs into Philip on the street, I think she's going to be totally nice to him, and have an appreciation for him, and what he taught her. I don't think she wants to be with him anymore, and I think she thinks that he's an asshole. But I think that at the same time, she doesn't engage him, and I think that's a really strong position to be in. To not hate someone, but understand, that they're not the right person for you.
What will happen to Philip?
Elisabeth: I think Philip will hold a grudge a little longer than Ashley does. [laughs] I don't think they're going to be going to lunch anytime soon.
Jason: I think, after this movie ends, he is going to go on to have a few more of these types of relationships with these types of women. Great, amazing people. And he's probably going to fuck it up.
This article has been condensed and edited from two separate interviews.
